By DUNCAN JOHNSTONE - RugbyHeaven | Sunday, 9 September 2007
Don't paint David Nucifora as the bad guy who ran All Blacks lock and Blues favourite Ali Williams out of town.
That's the word from the coach himself as Auckland comes to grips with losing a player who had as much flavour for the city as a Ponsonby Road latte.
Nucifora has finally broken his silence on the Williams saga that saw the player sent home from South Africa during the Super 14 and contributed to his controversial transfer south to Tasman to link up with the Crusaders next year.
In an exclusive interview Nucifora told RugbyHeaven that he would have been happy to have Williams continue to play for him.
And, despite a recent cover story in the national weekly Rugby News magazine suggesting fellow All Blacks Tony Woodcock and Joe Rokocoko would also quit the franchise, Nucifora said both would "absolutely" play for the Blues next season.
In a wide-ranging interview that covered off his coaching philosophies, the pressures of being an Australian operating in New Zealand, his mysterious Brumbies exit, the tantalising Wallabies position that is up for grabs and the controversial All Blacks reconditioning programme that led to Williams' frustrating lack of game time, Nucifora didn't hold back.
How would you describe your coaching philosophy?
The first year when I was assistant coach it gave me the chance to sit back and get a feel for things here and that was important because it's definitely not one size fits all in rugby. You have to be adaptable. You've got to change with the different groups of people that you work with. But there are some given things that don't change - how you build a team, the sort of people you want and you need. 2006 was a start to put those plans into place. Nothing changes quickly for lots of reasons and it was always going to be a gradual process. To get the success was got this year was quite pleasing considering the number of things we did have to change.
You were inclusive with the players this year with the advent of your senior group having more say in things. Why did you go that way?
That was a change. I felt this group of players had been too used to being told what to do. When you tell someone what to do too often what they do is sit back and wait for that without thinking for themselves. On the field we needed players to be thinking more and taking more responsibility. For that to happen on the field they needed to start taking responsibility off the field. They needed to think more about their football and as professionals to encompass more of what they were thinking about.
Was it a success?
It was the single biggest mover for us this year. We brought in some outside consultants (an Australian company) to help the players. It started to give the players more confidence on the field because of the work they put in off it. They started to contribute more about our training, preparation and analysis.
Are you in a privileged position as an Australian being the first overseas coach to be given a New Zealand franchise?
Yes I am, knowing what rugby means in this country to people. I've loved the job and it has helped me become a better coach. Not just the personnel or the game but the off-field issues because of the high profile rugby has here.
Does that include more pressure as an outsider?
I haven't notice that to be honest although there is much more media here than in Australia. To do this job you have to be able to appreciate that is part of it. But you also have to be able to keep a level playing field, realise they are out there but not let them put you off your track with what you are trying to achieve.
Did you operate a similar philosophy at the Brumbies?
In all honesty it was probably at opposite ends of the spectrum. I went from a [Brumbies] group that had some incredibly experienced players who had run that team in a certain style before I got there. Then I came here to a team that hadn't had any input into what they did. In both experiences I was trying to find the middle ground as to what worked.
Did that come back to bite you at the Brumbies?
I don't necessarily think so. That was a tough period. But the thing that was overlooked there was that my issues were with a very small number of people. The relationships I had with a large number of players and my staff there was very strong. That is ultimately what helped us power through it and get the outcomes we got there.
Back to the Blues this year, take us through the reconditioning scenario and the difficulties of working through that.
Throughout that whole time, the focus was so intense on so few people - the conditioning players. I think it got overlooked at times that there were a lot of other players in the squad who were working very hard and wanted to be successful for the franchise and also had ambitions to make the World Cup squad. I had a responsibility to manage everyone. We were happy to buy into the programme - it was well explained to us and it had some merit to it. There are things in there with hindsight that everyone would look back on and do differently. We brought all our players together in January to thrash out what everyone's expectations and goals were and how we could adjust to achieve those. It was made clear to everyone that if the players who started the season did the job, we would stick by them and the other players would have to earn their positions back. I think that was the right thing to do.
Unlike some other franchises you had some reasonable players filling in, even All Blacks like Greg Rawlinson and Troy Flavell as locks for example. Did that make it tougher?
The guys were performing and you can't ask any more than that. My credibility as a coach to those players and their team mates ... if they saw them pushed aside just so someone could get an armchair ride back in, it not only affects the individual, it affects the other people within the group and the whole dynamic of the team changes. A team dynamic is stronger than an individual and we had to be very wary of that.
History would show the reconditioned players weren't ready to play the Super 14 and Grahame Henry admitted they weren't ready to play the Tri Nations. They were aimed at the World Cup. Is that right?
It certainly wasn't the players fault. They didn't ask to sit out that period of time and players always want to play. That was a difficult period for them because New Zealand rugby is a competitive environment. It was a tricky time but there were positives to come out of it like the performances of the guys that did come through.
Ali Williams is Mr Confidence. He would think he could play at the drop of a hat. Did he struggle with the transition?
I think the way it panned out it showed that he did. He is a confident player and a confident person and he wanted to play. But again, you go back to the dynamics of the team and what other guys were doing at the time and that was important to the whole group. People aren't just judged by what they do on the field but their contribution as a whole and that's not just pointed at the team, that's pointed at everyone.
You and the management were clearly disappointed enough to send Ali home. How did that come about?
People have to understand that it was a group decision all along. If it was left up to individuals to make those decisions about a person being left out, different people person would have said that should have happened sooner or later or not at all. But the group decision was to make that decision. Looking back I'm quite proud that it was the whole group that made that decision. Twelve months earlier I don't the players would have had the maturity to make a tough decision like that. And it was tough - for players to judge their team mate like that is incredibly hard.
Does Ali's move surprise you? Did you push Ali out of town or did he go on his own accord?
He left on his own accord. That was his decision to go. We had many discussions and meetings over the last few months and he knew that he was welcome to stay here. People deal with things in different ways. Some people will just put their head own and get on with it; other people will make the decision to leave. He made the decision to go which was his prerogative.
So you were quite happy for him to play in the Blues next year?
Absolutely. One thing we made clear to everyone this year was that they knew what the guidelines were. If you want to be part of the team you operate within the guidelines that the team sets.
He is a loss with Greg Rawlinson going as well?
Yes, but it brings on other opportunities for other people. Back in 2004 in Canberra we lost quite a few people and we had people rock up in Mark Chisholm and Radiki Samo and we were good enough to win the title. So it's funny how things work out.
So much emphasis has been placed on Ali Williams but Joe Rockocoko had it even tougher in terms of limited opportunities. How did he handle it?
Joe did a great job and if he didn't have the setback of the injury in the trial game things would have panned out differently. When you are dealing with top-end players, the individual has to be handled differently. Joe needs to be on the field a lot and in hindsight I don't think the reconditioning period was probably the best thing for a guy like Joe. He would have been better playing for the season and getting his confidence up.
How did the recent Rugby News article suggesting Ali, Joe and Tony Woodcock were disenchanted and off hit you?
I'm a bit of an easy target with things like that and you get a bit disappointed because of my history in Canberra.
Do you feel like a serial offender?
That will always stick with me now in my coaching. But the disappointing thing was that the team had gone so far as a group this year and things like that which are written irresponsibly do a lot of damage. Not just to individuals but to organisations and to the playing group. The guys had worked so hard to build something as a team. I can ride through those things personally although they do make me angry at times. It was like the issues at Canberra and the effect they can have on your family ? they can be brutal, especially when you have been through that before. I have kids (aged nine, 10 and 12) and kids in the schoolyard can be brutal with what they say. That gets hard and hard for your wife and your extended family. They don't like reading things like that, especially when they know that they aren't true.
I presume you got in touch with Tony and Joe pretty quickly?
Absolutely. Tony rang me within hours of the thing coming out and I spoke with Joe a couple of days after. Not only were they flabbergasted at the article and that they hadn't been consulted or spoken too. But just the fact that it was so far from the truth as to what they were doing. They were quite hurt and angry by it.
So you are confident they will be playing for the Blues next year.
Absolutely ... 100%.
The Crusaders have a shortage of wingers with Rico Gear going and Caleb Ralph getting on.
I'm sure they are targeting wingers, I have no doubt about that. But it won't be Joe.
Looking into 2008 there are a lot of guys moving on because of the four year World Cup cycle. Is it going to be hard to keep up your progression?
We will lose a few. It's a setback when you lose anyone because one of the keys to progression is continuity. That will be a challenge and the more you lose the harder it is to keep the continuity. But we do feel that we have spent a lot of time as a management group trying to make sure that we work better at developing talent and identifying players. So we have got people coming through and I'm confident we have some good talent that will emerge next year. Once you have the systems in place these sorts of departures have less effect. The transition will be reasonably smooth. The challenge for all of New Zealand rugby is the depth because the Super 14 is such a brutal competition over such a short period of time. You have to keep key people healthy and on the field. That's about player management.
You have a new assistant in Greg Cooper. Tell, us about him.
He will be a big help and we were really fortunate to get Greg. He's a really positive person. He's done a great job with the Highlanders over the last four years and he had a tough ask. When you look at them each year you think they are going to struggle each year but every year they came out as a competitive unit and that's a credit to him. He viewed this as a good time for change for him and I think he's a guy that can build on what Joe Schmidt did with our attack. Again, the continuity will be there.
And Nick Evans comes north with him. That's a bonus, surely?
Yeah, I'm pretty happy with that. Isa Nacewa did a great job at first five for a guy who was thrust there. It's made him a better footballer and there will be times when he's called in to play there next season. But Nick brings a little bit more to the team with his international experience and his kicking game. That releases us to move Isa to another position.
What about the pressure for results in 2008 after making the semis this year?
As a coach you are always judged by results. But you know and the people close to you know whether you have done a good job without looking at the results. Hopefully they go hand in hand but they don't always. You have to almost block that pressure out, work the process and get on with the job. I'm a great believer in doing what you think is right, committing to it and not letting anyone knock you off target.
You'll have to deal with All Blacks in a different way this time.
If they win they'll be in good spirits. But whatever, they will have a bit longer rest this year for the Super 14 after the World Cup and that's good.
You have resisted the temptation to go for the Wallabies job. Do you have ambitions there long term?
I've always been of the opinion of what happens will happen. If that's the way things pan out ... I've just gotten on with things. I have had a really enjoyable time working with this team. I like this job and working with the players and I've had really good support from the management, the board and Andy Dalton in particularly. That has made my job easier. I'm happy in my role here. If anything happens on the Wallabies front we will deal with that at the time.
You seem a loyal person.
I have unfinished business and I do feel a real sense of loyalty to the players here. They have been the driving force behind where we have gone. Watching their development as a group gives you a lot of satisfaction.
You are an Australian here, Eddie Jones is an Australian with the Springboks and now the Aussies are open to having an overseas coach in charge of the Wallabies. Is that a sign of the times?
Eddie has copped a bit of flak ... I've got off lightly [laughs]. I understand the principle. It's a reality of professional sport. There are arguments both ways but if someone is committed enough to a task they will give their very best.
Is coaching a weakness of the Australian game?
There's no doubt there are some good coaches over there. What's detrimental is the lack of teams to coach at the high level. There are now four Super 14 teams and before this new competition came in this year you had club football or Super 14, there was no professional outlet to ply your trade. So there are a lot of Australian coaches overseas.
You have a background as an auctioneer. Is that helpful to coaching in terms of confidence and getting a feel for people?
I'm a very rusty auctioneer. But you have to be confident to stand up in front of a crowd and run an auction. There are some crazy similarities. You are in control of a large group of people when you are working. You make decisions in split seconds. And you get to read body language. Sometimes you read their body language before they make their next move because you learn to watch and understand what people do.
Do you consider yourself a reasonable person?
I'm a great believer in knowing what you are good at but more importantly what you are not good at. Then you get people that are better than you in those areas to do it. If you do that well in the first place then you have a lot of confidence in letting people - both staff and players - get on with what they are employed to do.
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